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Post by davemorton on Nov 13, 2023 13:52:58 GMT
This started on the rugby thread, where I voiced my dislike of the so-called 4G pitches, which are springing up in rugby, some at the top end - Saracens, Newcastle, Gloucester - some at grassroots - Preston Grasshoppers (inappropriately!), Rosslyn Park, and West Park Bramhope, apparently, along with many others. These are actually 3G pitches, with some unpleasant additions. and they are tempting to install because of low maintenance, all-weather capability, and the capacity for community use, bringing in income all the time. However, at least some of those who installed them wish they hadn't. There have also been concerns about player safety, which led to a spat between Saracens and Exeter, with at least one Exeter and England player refusing to play in it. I heard another player say that, after playing in wet weather, he spent a week getting little rubber pellets out of his hair and body orifices! SoccerThe daddy of all pitches seems to be the Desso GrassMaster, which is a grass pitch to which has been added 20 million polypropylene fibres, to give a lovely and durable surface, a hybrid. The downside is that it costs a fortune, so only the well endowed soccer clubs can afford one. www.grassmastersolutions.com/en/grassmaster-overviewRugby (both codes)The RU national stadiums all have GrassMaster pitches - Twickenham, Murrayfield, Millennium, Aviva (Dublin), as does Wembley - but rugby is generally only played on them when there i groundsharing, as at Huddersfield (Town FC and Giants RL) or Swansea (City and Ospreys RU). There are several other examples. CricketSomeone asked about hybrid cricket pitches, and I am looking into this. There is a lot of stuff out there on the internet! And a hybrid cricket pitch makes sense, financially, the area of a single pitch being less than 100 square metres, compared with the 7,000 for football. Several counties have hybrid practice pitches, and there is a match pitch on the Trent Bridge square. SIS pitches seem to be the people...as I said, I am looking into it. Feel free to join in! www.sispitches.com/about-us/HistoricalNon-turf pitches are not exactly new. May of us will have played cricket on concrete covered by coir (coconut) matting. Test cricket was played on such surfaces within living memory, in Pakistan and West Indies, certainly, and in Australia, at club level. Some of you may remember a horrible tarmac thing that was marketed as a practice pitch. They were everywhere, and they were lethal. Around 1970, there was the Nottingham (Nottinghamshire?) pitch, which resembled a carpet, and was nice to play on (though no spikes!) if correctly laid. I got one installed at my school, but they refused to go the whole way and laid it on concrete, to save costs. It was still better than our poor grass square, but not a good feel, and the kids hated it. In Manchester in the late 1960s, I also saw soccer being played on what they called the 'red rec', which was some sort of shale. It looked pretty horrific but the local kids didn't mind. There were plenty of punch ups in those days, before soccer became wimpy, so a few scrapes were nothing. I was glad I didn't have to play rugby on it, though. |
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Post by karma on Nov 13, 2023 17:53:17 GMT
Thanks Dave that's very comprehensive, interesting, detailed and explained. I call all non-pure grass pitches 'artificial' though I appreciate there are artificial and hybrid pitches.
I didn't realise there were so many variations but then my main interest has been in their use in Association Football and very recently, cricket. Harrogate Town football club used to have an artificial pitch when they were in lower leagues and who their crowds were much smaller. I remember a York City player, John Parkin, declining to play there because the nature of the pitch would lead to him being injured (knees). They've progressed up the leagues, are comparatively financially more secure playing in Div2 , better crowds and with a totally grassed pitch ( and multi-millionaire owner being the long term manager's father)
On the other hand I believe artificial pitches in football have produced some more attractive play in that the truer pitch leads to a greater level of passing man-to-man on the floor rather than just hoofing the ball in the air and hoping it finds someone.
The points to which you alluded about low-maintenance, all-weather, and basically seven days a week potential use is great for the club and community, particularly the income stream this gives to the club. Another football team I watch, Guiseley , some years ago had an artificial pitch but then removed it, laid turf , started employing full-time players and had great ambitions to climb up the leagues.
That didn't last too long, it's reckoned they lost £0.5mill - they're back to part-time players, in a lower league and have recently received planning permission to lay an artificial pitch. With a typical crowd being in the low hundreds it's about economics . The new artificial pitch should be ready for the start of the 2024 season. The club has a 'raise the roof' fund which aims to raise sufficient monies to put a roof over one of the ends.
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Post by newby on Nov 13, 2023 18:03:29 GMT
I remember we had a concrete pitch in the middle of the playing fields at my school, circa late 50's. I'm struggling to remember if I ever saw anybody play anything but taws on it. Deeper analysis of my subconscious brings back memories of us lugging the coconut matting out there very occasionally on a sport afternoon. The level of cricket at my school was more than catered for by a wooden set of wickets set up on the playground and a bag containing a couple of bats, largely broken pads originally intended for very tall people, and the remnants of some pre-war batting gloves.
It might be out of date now but it seems Notts are the only team to go the whole hog and have the hybrid material stitched into the actual playing surface, rather than just practice pitches. I'm sure I heard of more being used during the season just gone so they are probably not alone.
I have a feeling there are all sorts of levels of this stuff, perhaps with it just being used around the wicket ends where the bowlers do all the damage in some cases. Bradford Park Avenue it seems has a pitch 20% plastic and 80% natural.
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Post by byased on Nov 13, 2023 18:05:35 GMT
Artificial surfaces worked well for hockey. Football surfaces have got better. Isn't there now 5G ? The early versions were very bouncy, QPR, Preston and Oldham "spring" to mind. They have got a lot better, but still tend to bounce a bit too much for my liking. I think Terry Venables wrote a book called "they used to play on grass", when he was at QPR many years ago.
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Post by davemorton on Nov 13, 2023 21:09:22 GMT
Artificial surfaces are mandatory for hockey, at any decent level. The game was often played on good cricket outfields, where the true rolling of the ball is the chief concern, and artificial is better than any grass outfield. Although hockey players do fall over, it is significantly less so than in any code of football.
I played once, Staff v Kids while on teaching practice, and it's the most frightening game I've ever played, though there's a mad Irish game that might be worse. Hurling? Shinty? I think one of them is for Scottish nutters.
I seem to remember Preston North End having an early plastic pitch, but they were forced to dig it up. Verboten in the Football League, I think. The high bounce makes for a farcical game. In rugby union, the bounce affects even the tackle area, making the 'planted' ball bounce, and the whole game untidy and shapeless. Not a problem in RL, of course, where the tackled player holds on.
None of these concerns extend to the Hybrid, which is simply an excellent grass pitch made even better for playing on, as well as harder wearing. But the old mudbath has gone, which was always fun, even for a lightweight winger as I was. Then! It was lovely to go to ground five yards short of the try-line and toboggan over it. Do that on G4 and you'll probably require skin surgery. Lots of players wearing tights, which are now allowed.
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Post by davemorton on Nov 14, 2023 2:00:42 GMT
I have just remembered playing in goal for my school staff side, on one of the first generation 'astroturf' pitches. On a cold and wet Manchester night under floodlights it was pretty horrific, and definitely not dive-friendly, even wearing tracky bottoms. I still did it, though, because we are pretty competitive types, aren't we? When young, anyway.
The worst part was the bounce. At 5'9" I was in danger of it bouncing over my head into the net, if I didn't get my angles right. It was a long 90 minutes. I enjoyed playing in goal...but not that night.
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Post by slowleftarmer on Nov 14, 2023 8:27:26 GMT
I have been involved with hockey from the age of 11, playing on the outfields of cricket grounds as Dave recalls, but also some horrendous grass and shale pitches. It was like playing 3 different sports with the ball rolling differently on each of them. The best surface we played on in my early career was on Redcar beach where we sometimes trained. A true surface but one where you could play the 2nd half on a brand new pitch a 100 yards further along the beach.
I was fortunate at Uni to play where we had 3 grass pitches surrounding the 2 cricket squares. The move to astroturf came in the late 80s along with rule changes that helped, such as the removal of offside. The game could then be played on one pitch 4-5 times a day although this then disrupted post match bonhomie if you played at 10.30 in the morning or 4.30 in the late afternoon. Its a far better game now its all on astroturf although the consequences catch up with you eventually as I am convinced astroturf hockey is what led to my knee operations.
Sadly up north a number of the astro hockey pitches are being converted into football astros, as they reckon they can make more money from external hires for football. Even Leeds Beckett University which had 2 astro hockey pitches side by side no longer has one left and the University are forced to look to local clubs to support them for their training and matches. Having helped fund raise to put down 2 astro pitches its not cheap and the upkeep comes at a price too with better fencing needed (a result of lockdown), dugouts and a move to energy efficient lighting.
There are some great Yorkshire cricketers who were talented hockey players too. David Byas played for Welton (now Hull) and had a thunderous shot at a short corner as you might imagine and Phil Sharpe played for Ben Rhydding. One of Norman Yardley's sons still plays at Sheffield and turns out for one of the England Masters teams.
I know Joe and Billy Root dabbled with hockey at Sheffield too and Jonny Bairstow was a talented county schoolboy hockey player when not also playing cricket, football, rugby.... (and probably golf!)
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Post by newby on Nov 14, 2023 8:52:45 GMT
The hybrid pitches under the auspices of the RFU require licencing and inspection every 2 years. Weetwood, Yarnbury and Keighley RFC also have them in our area. They also seem very popular with fee paying schools.
Greenfields is another company, they advertise Hybrid and 3G rugby pitches. I'd have thought 3G was a thing of the past. All very confusing and no doubt down to what you can afford.
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Post by davemorton on Nov 14, 2023 9:38:33 GMT
Myth Buster: Do 4G pitches really exist? (From "Myth Buster" October 2022 - I cannot vouch for its veracity)
They say the grass is always greener, and with 3G pitches growing in popularity, some providers are now claiming they can even install 4G playing surfaces.
However, the problem with this is that 4G pitches are yet to be backed by any formal standards by the sports’ governing bodies, meaning those labelling their artificial grass have very little to support their claims. Instead, this is being used as a sales tool to entice buyers to invest in the “latest technology”.
To keep things simple, we’ve outlined the different types of artificial grass available below.
What are the different types of artificial grass pitches?
1G There can be confusion in the market as to what defines a first generation pitch, however, the general consensus is that they are a non-infilled surface, also commonly known as “astroturf”.
2G – Second generation pitches are sand-based and have a carpet style surface. These can be installed in Multi Use Games Areas (MUGA), as they are durable and weatherproof. The primary sport played on 2G pitches is hockey.
3G – Third generation, the latest artificial pitch technology, and the most popular. 3G surfaces are made up of long pile synthetic grass with a mix of sand and rubber infill. This gives the unique texture of natural grass, but provides more even and smooth play than the varied terrain of a muddy pitch. The “rubber crumb” also has shock absorbent qualities too, and helps to keep the synthetic grass upright.
4G and the future – Those claiming to have developed 4G pitches say it is like 3G artificial grass, but without the need for rubber crumb. While these types of turf do exist, and could therefore be claimed as 4G, they have not yet been officially graded as a new technology, nor are they governed by any recognised standards. It can therefore be misleading for 3G pitches without a rubber crumb to be labelled this way.
When it comes to playing surfaces, venues are always on the lookout for the next best thing. However, it pays to be clued up about the different types of turf available nowadays as innovations and developments are constantly changing the field.
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Post by davemorton on Nov 14, 2023 10:01:03 GMT
There is a claimed 4G pitch at Weetwood, with big signs saying what footwear is allowed, and what isn't. There is a rugby pitch next to it, which looked like regular grass to me - brown and parched during the 2022 heatwave - but it could have been a hybrid I suppose, if a university can find £1 million for such a thing. I bet you it isn't, though.
I know the 3G pitches installed by the RFU need to be inspected, and every injury logged and reported (if that's still the case). It remains a fact that, officially, there is no such thing as a 4G pitch recognised by any sporting body, let alone 5G, 6G... Watch for the telltale spurt of rubber infill pellets every time the ball lands on it.
I find that the first GrassMaster hybrid pitch in England was installed at Huddersfield Town, at the stadium that seems to change its name every few weeks. I cannot imagine such a thing at Keighley or Yarnbury rugby clubs, way down the game's pecking order - I have been to both.
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Post by davemorton on Nov 14, 2023 10:25:28 GMT
From "Rugby Pass" some very strong words about the 3G/4G pitches at Saracens, Newcastle, Glasgow, etc. The consensus is 1. Desso, 2. Grass, and the plastic is hated by all, including the Glasgow player who plays on it regularly. There are worries about ingesting the rubber 'crumb', as well as about the hardness of the thing. www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqq5UMsOnBE(Beware strong language, if you're viewing at home in a family context.) |
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Post by newby on Nov 14, 2023 17:35:14 GMT
Kilmarnock in the SPL are the latest football side to bow to pressure and are having their artificial pitch replaced with proper grass. Lots of complaints seemingly mostly to do with injuries, although the Scottish FA haven't banned them.
I remember the fuss when they first came in at QPR and Luton, although I think most of it was about the home team having an advantage because they could train on it and get used to the extra zip.
I have to say the more I read the more confused I get. 6G, according to the makers, has no rubber crumb in it. It also doesn't exist reading another article.
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Post by davemorton on Nov 14, 2023 21:40:29 GMT
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Post by davemorton on Nov 14, 2023 23:08:20 GMT
If you don't know John Fuller's cricketyorkshire.com website it's time you checked it out. It is an unbelievably thorough guide to grassroots cricket in our county. No aspect of the game is left uncovered, no club is too small. So when I googled 'hybrid cricket pitches', no surprise, CY appeared near the top. I've not read it yet - time for bed! - but I leave it with you. cricketyorkshire.com/hybrid-cricket-pitches/ |
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Post by hawke on Nov 15, 2023 6:57:11 GMT
I did play soccer on artificial pitches a couple of times. I was the goalie in a 5 a-side team for years and occasionally we would extend to 11 a-side. We hired the grass pitch at Halifax Town and also the artificial pitches at Preston NE and Oldham Athletic. I don't recall any complaints from players who were delighted to be on league grounds. My personal experience was facing a penalty at Preston. Diving the wrong way and conceding but also breaking a bone in my foot when diving. Don't know if that was pitch related.....
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