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Post by davemorton on Nov 25, 2023 20:10:06 GMT
This weekend, I have watched two successive (men's) rugby matches with women referees. On Friday evening, Sara Cox was in charge of the Northampton Saints v Harlequins match. Sara is 33 now, though she doesn't look it, supremely fit and confident, and a very accurate referee, technically. Great communicator also. But she is also tiny, and mixing in with giants like Courtenay Lawes, in a game that ended up niggly.
Saturday morning, on YouTube, we had Northampton School for Boys (NSB) playing Whitgift School. This referee was what fashion adverts used to call 'the fuller woman', though equally short in height, and you could hear her heavy breathing over the mic.
Again, she was very clear in her decisions, and in her explanations, but I thought she blew the pea out of her whistle, and what should have been a great game, wasn't. It was okay, with bright and well brought up young men behaving well, but I felt there was frustration, also. How can a little, dumpy woman manage a game where half the players are six-foot speedsters?
One way, is by blowing the whistle a lot!
Does men's football get women refs? What about cricket umpires? Any views?
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Post by karma on Nov 26, 2023 7:25:16 GMT
I gave some earlier feedback about females referees in a previous post on the Association Football thread, Dave, and rather than repeat it all, I'll just give the salient points. First of all the level of refereeing usually reflects the standard of play and in the lower leagues I watch, which is sometimes pretty dire but often very entertaining.
I attended a Tuesday night Football game at Farsley Celtic (v Boston), in National League North earlier this month and where the game was refereed by a lady, Melissa Burgin. She is a slight figure and for most of the game I didn't really notice her that much apart from seeing that she kept up with play. However when she blew her whistle for a free kick, throw in, penalty or whatever, she gave very clear signals what it was for and to which team. Yes there was one initial crowding round the ref by aggrieved players but she quickly waved them away and when one idiot didn't take on board her message was booked for verbal dissent . There wasn't a repetition. She had control .
The noticeable thing from where I watching on the terraces was a lack of swearing on the pitch (and the terraces) . Football is a contact sport, sometimes with hard 50/50 tackling and and some referees are constantly blowing up for next to nothing. After all the game is about the football , not the referee. Melissa let the game flow and it was an enjoyable one which Farsley won 2 -0 , including a penalty. I've seen one other female referee in the last couple of years. They were both very good, not as women but as referees.
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Post by newby on Nov 26, 2023 11:26:22 GMT
I think being a referee/umpire can be a decent career path these days, and like a lot of careers we once thought of as male bastions, there should be no bar to moving towards equality of opportunity.
Men or Women have to start by running the line or umpiring at a low level and if they are good enough, fit enough and keen enough, then they progress. Of course if they have played the game that is often an advantage but I'm not sure it's totally necessary.
At the top level I don't think you find very many poor officials. The scrutiny they face wouldn't allow them to rise so far.
That doesn't mean to say you can't come across a few having a bad day, and that includes the very best.
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Post by tykemania on Nov 26, 2023 16:29:05 GMT
As you say, the management of sporting fixtures is somewhat of a meritocracy (I have to say somewhat as there needs to be an explanation for Jaco Peyper) and there is no reason why women cannot succeed. I have more of an issue with female commentators - specifically where it is patently obvious that the commentary team just HAS to have a female voice, even if the person they choose is manifestly awful at the job, as is too often the case. One can only imagine how someone like Alison Mitchell, who got the job by being exceptionally good at it, feels!
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Post by davemorton on Nov 26, 2023 17:24:07 GMT
Jaco Peyper is a woman. Well, he's highly emotional, illogical and never wrong, so perhaps...
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Post by newby on Nov 26, 2023 18:32:57 GMT
I suspect we are going to have to grin and bear the proliferation of women, not so much in the commentary role but as the 'expert analyser.
Some of the ones who do the football sound like 'proper geezers' from the cast of Eastenders or a Guy Ritchie movie. In Cricket we seem to get the flat dull ones who really have little to say.
That's a generalisation aimed at TMS, some of the young third voices who help out with local radio cricket commentary are really quite refreshing.
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Post by tykemania on Nov 26, 2023 19:16:09 GMT
There are a few good ones - Alex Scott, for all her showbiz pretentions, knows her stuff and puts it across well, and Nolly Waterman is refreshing on the Rugby. But then you get some where they say literally nothing, and do it in an annoyingly high pitched whine.
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Post by slowleftarmer on Nov 27, 2023 7:35:14 GMT
Well heres one for you. At top level international hockey they play tournaments that have mens and womens competitions at the same time at the same venue. Recently in some games they have had a mens game umpired by one man and one woman and ditto for the womens games. Has it made any difference to the game? Not at all other than to show the quality of umpires exists irrespective of the sex of the umpire.
At my club, we have to provide 2 umpires for home league games and often I umpire with a female umpire who is more qualified than me in terms of umpiring badges. We both played to a reasonable level so know the game. We umpires mens and ladies games and I have never had a problem. We get asked as we are probably the best 2 umpires the club can provide, irrespective of our sex.
But I agree that sometimes you look at the panel of pundits on TV or in a comms box and its clear the group have not been selected based on knowledge, ability or qualifications.
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Post by newby on Nov 27, 2023 16:37:54 GMT
Talking of pundits, commentators etc.
BBC broadcaster Kevin Howells was recognised with the Peter Smith Award recognising his outstanding contribution to the presentation of cricket to the public.
This is from the Cricket writers club awards which have just been announced.
Michael Holding won it last year so he's in good company.
He does do a lot for the County game especially, and is particularly good when he gets an ECB man to gently tear into about the schedule. Though not originally from these parts he did start by covering Yorkshire pre Dave Callaghan.
Harry Brook and Nat Sciver-Brunt won the main player awards.
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Post by byased on Nov 27, 2023 22:42:09 GMT
No issues with female umpires or referees. Agree with not having to have a female commentator or summariser on every football match. I turn them down even more than the men.
On the subject of swearing, we once played in a Sunday league match against Halesowen who fielded a woman in the team. I think she was an England international but it was in the early 1990s, so not sure.
Before the match our captain told us to watch the language especially when she came in to bat. We thought that was funny as he swore more than anyone. Anyway, she came in to bat and after three or four balls got bowled for 0, she banged her bat on the floor, said "f*** it" and stormed off.
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Post by karma on Nov 28, 2023 6:47:38 GMT
Not the same thing but in the early 60's I was particularly keen on a girl that went to Bar Convent School in York. She looked so demure in the pale blue beret they wore and she always saved me a seat on the bus from Dringhouses. She also saved me some of the baking she'd being doing in 'Domestic Science' to eat on the bus back home.
One Day while making my way back from playing footy on the pitches inside the racetrack on York Knavesmire , I came across a game of hockey on 'Little Knavesmire'. It was a girls match and my friend was playing. We were not supposed to watch but get back to school for showers. I stood and stared as she 'whacked' another player and screamed , you *****, that'll teach you to ******* trip me'
I was in shock but started walking to and from school after that.
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Post by newby on Nov 28, 2023 9:03:24 GMT
I've never been able to get used to women swearing, nor men swearing in mixed company for that matter. I think I'm allowed to be old fashioned.
I was lucky, or perhaps it was something that was ingrained in me, that I could glide between swearing every other word in the mess deck, to cutting it out completely without any effort. I don't think my wife has ever heard me swear.
Nobody is perfect though and sometimes when I hear a group of lads or men swearing loudly enough to be heard by others I'm sure I've been there. My only defence is it was the drink what dun it.
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Post by karma on Nov 28, 2023 13:01:03 GMT
Same here Newby regarding swearing in mixed company (or opening doors for ladies)
I remember after I'd retired and my wife was still in paid employment I would meet her from work and we would go for a drink in a local public house . One day the language from a group of lads was littered with swearing and showed a distinct lack of imagination in picking adjectives. I said "Excuse me lads, but could you please moderate your language as there is mixed company here today?" The response from one individual was " Well this is a public bar, what do you expect?" Fortunately, before I could respond, one of his colleagues pointed out to him that there were women (and two children) in the bar and apologised. Problem solved . Yes a group enjoying themselves , drink involved which leads to people switching off their PC chip.
Mrs. Karma used to accompany me to all cricket matches and which she enjoyed. Not for some time now though, particularly for T20's because, as she describes it , the "Potty-mouthed language" and behaviour. I enjoy a drink but generally limited to a glass of lager-shandy at games as intend watching and enjoying the cricket rather than be up and down all night topping up and emptying the overpriced fare - anyway that's a whole other topic
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Post by byased on Nov 28, 2023 16:35:18 GMT
Yes, I can empathise with both Newby and Karma .The way we were brought up I guess. when I first started taking my son to football matches, where it is difficult to avoid language, although 30 years ago it was a bit easier.
I told him that I guessed he would pick up all the words at some stage, but don't repeat them in front of your mother. He never did. I have spent hours and hours in sports teams and dressing rooms, and happily join in with all the language, but never swore in front of my parents, wife, or son and daughter. I think those days of such restraint may be slipping into history. There will be a lot of women who feel they do not need protecting from language, and use it as much as men, certain politicians spring to mind, but a bit of old fashioned gentlemanly behaviour is still good in my view.
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