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Post by newby on Oct 22, 2023 16:45:30 GMT
The referee is always right is a saying that seems to fit Rugby Union more than any other sport I can think of. They do occasionally get pulled back by the TMO and reverse the odd decision when it involves foul play they haven't seen, but not very often.
The Penalty that allowed Pollard to score the winning points seems to hang on whether the England player's knee touched the ground a millisecond before a South African player moved his hips or not.
I think the big games could get very ugly if the TV coverage went looking for evidence of refereeing mistakes, so they don't.
I don't particularly like the fact that so many of the games rules are so technical and are down to the referee's interpretation.
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Post by Hit Wicket on Oct 22, 2023 17:03:43 GMT
For the avoidance of doubt, I quite enjoy the randomness of a ref's perspective. I'd just like to have the technicalities explained better.
One example that we often see is a team driving in an effort to draw a penalty. But draw it how, exactly?
And another I've not grasped is when a team box kick. In certain circumstances it seems a given yet what's to stop them running the ball?
I'm not arguing "they're wrong" but I'm saying "I don't understand their decision" (which is presumably obvious). I can't (I hope) be the only ignoramous.
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Post by davemorton on Oct 22, 2023 19:09:09 GMT
Who would have thought that England could rediscover their inner mongrel? And we are mongrels, of course. Even more amazingly, S Africa were knocked out of their stride. We might even have won, had we kept our two old props on the field, but they were probably knackered.
On refereeing, I did it for years, as a schoolteacher and as a club official at 3rd and 4th XV level. When I retired from work, I had a few years in the Manchester & District Referees' Society, which I loved. To still be part of the game, on the field and interacting with the players, at age 55+, was wonderful. My feeling was that players didn't judge you on the correctness of this particularly penalty, given or not given, but on your game management over the 80 minutes. Generally. Nothing is perfect, but I had very, very few acrimonious games.
Obviously it's different at the pro level, but here you've got three pairs of eyes on the park, plus a TV official in a van, and a big screen. They seem able to come to the right decisions most of the time, and they are great at communicating that decision and the reasons for it. The top referees are also superb at player management. The old values have been preserved, I would say, more so than in cricket. The experts in the commentary box have all been there, and they understand the game's ethos.
The reason for the complexity of the laws is that you need a way of continuing the game following a tackle. No Laws at all would lead to an 80-minute mud-wrestle. Make it very simple and allow the tackled player to keep the ball, and you've got rugby league. What has evolved over the years, with frequent changes, allows the game to flow with both teams still competing for the ball all the time. As a referee, you get assessed and advised on your management of the tackle area, more than any other aspect. It is the very essence of rugby union.
Finally, the competitive tackle area leads to the concepts of good ball, which is tidy and quick, and bad ball, which is messy and slow. It is the reason the scrums are competitive, where RL scrums are not. More than mere possession is at stake. Generally, you can't run slow ball, because the opposition is in your face. None of the ridiculous 10-metres back in RU, thankfully. This leads to the box kick. The 'box' is the area the coach draws on the blackboard, the little square behind the half-backs and winger, but close to the touchline, which is hard to defend, if you get it right. Then, hopefully, you will make the tackle in the box, and create good, quick ball for your next attack.
Sometimes that even happens, but teams have become proficient at defending that box, and it can be a bit of a bore, something teams do when they run out of ideas, typical of the England we have seen these last two or three years. A poor box kick - too long - provides counterattacking chances, with which teams like Ireland or France will kill you, and too short often results in your own forwards being offside.
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Post by karma on Oct 23, 2023 7:05:19 GMT
Who would have thought that England could rediscover their inner mongrel? And we are mongrels, of course. Even more amazingly, S Africa were knocked out of their stride. We might even have won, had we kept our two old props on the field, but they were probably knackered. On refereeing, I did it for years, as a schoolteacher and as a club official at 3rd and 4th XV level. When I retired from work, I had a few years in the Manchester & District Referees' Society, which I loved. To still be part of the game, on the field and interacting with the players, at age 55+, was wonderful. My feeling was that players didn't judge you on the correctness of this particularly penalty, given or not given, but on your game management over the 80 minutes. Generally. Nothing is perfect, but I had very, very few acrimonious games. Obviously it's different at the pro level, but here you've got three pairs of eyes on the park, plus a TV official in a van, and a big screen. They seem able to come to the right decisions most of the time, and they are great at communicating that decision and the reasons for it. The top referees are also superb at player management. The old values have been preserved, I would say, more so than in cricket. The experts in the commentary box have all been there, and they understand the game's ethos. The reason for the complexity of the laws is that you need a way of continuing the game following a tackle. No Laws at all would lead to an 80-minute mud-wrestle. Make it very simple and allow the tackled player to keep the ball, and you've got rugby league. What has evolved over the years, with frequent changes, allows the game to flow with both teams still competing for the ball all the time. As a referee, you get assessed and advised on your management of the tackle area, more than any other aspect. It is the very essence of rugby union. Finally, the competitive tackle area leads to the concepts of good ball, which is tidy and quick, and bad ball, which is messy and slow. It is the reason the scrums are competitive, where RL scrums are not. More than mere possession is at stake. Generally, you can't run slow ball, because the opposition is in your face. None of the ridiculous 10-metres back in RU, thankfully. This leads to the box kick. The 'box' is the area the coach draws on the blackboard, the little square behind the half-backs and winger, but close to the touchline, which is hard to defend, if you get it right. Then, hopefully, you will make the tackle in the box, and create good, quick ball for your next attack. Sometimes that even happens, but teams have become proficient at defending that box, and it can be a bit of a bore, something teams do when they run out of ideas, typical of the England we have seen these last two or three years. A poor box kick - too long - provides counterattacking chances, with which teams like Ireland or France will kill you, and too short often results in your own forwards being offside.
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Post by davemorton on Oct 23, 2023 18:15:03 GMT
Karma quoted my post, without adding a comment of his own. Clearly, no further comment was necessary.
Wayne Barnes will referee the final, reward for being the best ref in the world for years, certainly since Nigel Owens retired. I thought Nic Berry was very impressive, too, and the Georgian....whatever he's called.
All clear thinkers, and tough, mentally, so not intimidated by the All Blacks, for example.
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Post by newby on Oct 23, 2023 18:42:12 GMT
Karl Dickson and Mathew Carley running the line with Tom Foley as TMO gives the RFU a full house.
Congratulations to Wayne Barnes and as long as the sound is turned up us mere mortals will at least hear what his decisions are and why he has made them.
Nic Berry does the 3rd place play-off game. I know the players probably hate it but there must be some prize money or ranking points in there to make it worthwhile.
Perhaps England might try running with the ball.
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Post by karma on Oct 24, 2023 5:34:06 GMT
Karma quoted my post, without adding a comment of his own. Clearly, no further comment was necessary. Wayne Barnes will referee the final, reward for being the best ref in the world for years, certainly since Nigel Owens retired. I thought Nic Berry was very impressive, too, and the Georgian....whatever he's called. All clear thinkers, and tough, mentally, so not intimidated by the All Blacks, for example.
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Post by karma on Oct 24, 2023 5:52:34 GMT
Karma quoted my post, without adding a comment of his own. Clearly, no further comment was necessary. Wayne Barnes will referee the final, reward for being the best ref in the world for years, certainly since Nigel Owens retired. I thought Nic Berry was very impressive, too, and the Georgian....whatever he's called. All clear thinkers, and tough, mentally, so not intimidated by the All Blacks, for example. Yes, sorry about that Dave, I'm still feeling my way round how to use the forum which I re-joined last week when I was away in the Lake District and only with my mobile phone with it's tiny screen and even tinier keyboard. I'm a Luddite and normally use my laptop. I realise the screen is bigger as are the keys on my laptop and the edit button is clear to see. Earlier this year I had Chemotherapy which I was happy to see the back of. It has affected my fingertips and nails though it is improving. I'm still clumsy with keyboard . To cap it all I returned from the Lakes with the fag end of the virus though I am clear now the effects linger longer than I wish I can't remember the exact words that I was going to reply but it was going to be an appreciation for some of the explanations you gave about refereeing. That together with the fact that Rugby Union has not been my first love in sport but that my interest has grown in this competition as the criticism has increased from the media. I really enjoyed the semi-final , appreciate England had a game plan which nearly gave them victory and saddened they didn't quite make it. Still they came far for a team written off even before setting foot on the plane!
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Post by karma on Oct 24, 2023 9:01:56 GMT
According to today's Times:
"World Rugby has responded to a complaint from the RFU into allegations that Bongi Mbonambi called Tom Curry a white c*** in England's World Cup semi-final defeat by South Africa"
The Sprinboks have issued a denial. They are cooperating with World Rugby's investigation via their legal team in France
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Post by newby on Oct 24, 2023 17:57:06 GMT
I hear there is an Afrikaans saying +wit Kant+ something like 'the side in white'. Right or wrong I expect this explanation to be jumped on by both sides after some initial argy bargy.
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Post by Hit Wicket on Oct 24, 2023 18:39:49 GMT
Wayne Barnes will referee the final, reward for being the best ref in the world for years, certainly since Nigel Owens retired. My pet hate with Barnes is his calling players by their first names. Except the ones who's names he doesn't know so he ends up calling them "Red 5" or whatever. This two-tier reffing just feels "ick".
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Post by karma on Oct 24, 2023 19:57:30 GMT
I hear there is an Afrikaans saying +wit Kant+ something like 'the side in white'. Right or wrong I expect this explanation to be jumped on by both sides after some initial argy bargy. What's a password? Only joking, I forgot mine and inserted another in error, found out I'd created a new member's account but fortunately now corrected. I've realised what tge phrase 'new dog old tricks' actually means 2nd half of footy just starting Guiseley 2 Marine 2
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Post by davemorton on Oct 24, 2023 20:12:56 GMT
Top sport is such a small world, that referees do know the players well, as people, not just their names. It is less easy in International events, but half the S African team plays in England anyway, so I assume he will know all of them...with perhaps just the odd newcomer having sneaked under his radar.
I always used to call umpires 'ump' or 'umpire', or possibly 'Mr Wilson', but never by first names. If they responded, 'That's two legs, Dave,' that was up to them, but I never broke my rule, even when the umpire was a bloke I had opened the batting with for thirty years.
I did once play bowls against the aforementioned Mr Wilson, when I called him Bob, of course, as I would have if I met him in the street or supermarket. We played several ends of bowls before he said, 'Well one thing's for sure, Dave, you're a better batter than you are a bowler!' Not sledging, just the truth. And a bit of a sideways compliment from a lovely man and good umpire.
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Post by newby on Oct 26, 2023 18:25:38 GMT
World Rugby seem to have sat on the complaint that Bongi Mbonambi racially abused Tom Curry. Not enough evidence seems to be the verdict.
Whether he did or didn't I'm sure it would have made more waves if it had been the other way round.
Looking forward to the final on Saturday, I'm just not sure who I want to win.
I am however pleased that one of them will lose. Is that wrong of me!!!
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Post by newby on Oct 28, 2023 22:07:09 GMT
Extremely close game with the defences on top, especially the South African one, and certainly not a classic. I found myself rooting for New Zealand, probably out of sympathy after their close defeat in the cricket.
It's probably the winning rather than the game that matters and I hope it in some measure helps South African unity across the races.
Lots of incidents for the English officiating team to deal with, I thought they handled things alright.
4 years to the next one, I'm not planning that far ahead for myself personally, but I can hope for a Northern hemisphere winner, perhaps even England.
PS: Don't forget to put your clocks back.
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